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this is a follow up to last weeks invitation to the parish meet together for soup and rolls, after the 10am service this Sunday 25th August 2024.
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This is a meeting to talk and discuss. No decisions will be made.
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Here we have an opportunity to ask and have answered questions about the 5 possible ways forward.
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Attached you will find vestry's discussions to date. The document is long. Print outs are available at the church door in a sealed container. If you are short on time just read the opening 14 pages. The introduction and background is from pages 15 - 28
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Questions people have asked during the week, and answers are below.
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Future options - 5 potential ways forward
Three directions, five options
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2) re-plant Anglican Mission,
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3) expand our current mission and vision
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Option 1 - lease/rent buildings
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Sell all/most of our assets, the advantage is that we no longer have the burden of responsibility of being a landlord (taking care of the buildings entrusted to us); we instead rent. This enables us to instead focus on the core faith business for those who are left. We acknowledge that this will ultimately lead to closure or the replanting of Anglican Mission
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Option 2 - combining parishes
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Combine with another parish like St John’s Campbells Bay, who have just said that they can no longer afford a full-time priest. We likewise would go to a half-time priest. This means that we can re-direct money spent on a stipend/salary into maintenance and extend our closure date. We acknowledge that this will ultimately lead to closure.
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Option 3 - Re-plant Anglican Mission
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Close Takapuna-St Peter's / Milford-St Paul’s / Cambell’s Bay-St Johns / Torbay-St Mary’s – sell all our assets, and replant a new mission for 2026 and beyond, looking at what is needed today and into the future, rather than being shaped by a past that no longer works. For example, all 4 venues have halls that were fantastic venues for community get-togethers, dances and the like, that simply don’t happen today. We acknowledge that the volunteer pool is getting smaller and we need to radically redefine how mission and ministry will happen in this part of the North Shore.
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Option 4 - Expand community shop & giving
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We expand the community shop to cover our outgoings and see this as the way to meet our current vision/mission. We put in effort to maximise the community shop to stablise the faith community’s vision and mission. We make a drive for those currently giving to give more money to the mission/vision at least until the community shop can be expanded. And we continue to apply for grants and funding to expand our ministry in the community. Those of us present acknowledge that we need to do this ourselves and that this will not all be passed onto potential new people coming into the faith community.
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Option 5 - Expand community shop + new venture
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We expand the community shop to cover our outgoings, and we start a new enterprise/business/venture to meet our maintenance and day to day needs. We acknowledge in this that giving will continue to decline and that the way forward is to externally fund St Mary by the Sea. And we continue to apply for grants and funding to expand our ministry in the community. Those of us present acknowledge that we need to do this ourselves and that this will not all be passed onto potential new people coming into the faith community.
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Option 6 - Status Quo - un-managed closure
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We make no changes and head towards an unmanaged closure.
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Questions and answers
Have any possible “New Ventures” been identified? - yes, see page 25.
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Will these new ventures be specific to St Mary, or joint ventures with other Parishes? - Great idea! Vestry hadn't considered this as an option, and will explore it if a direction is chosen that includes new ventures.
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Will minutes be taken? - no, minutes record decisions; no decisions will be made. Instead notes will be taken.
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How much has been spent on maintenance over the last 12 months? - in 2023 property costs were $126,954. In 2024 property costs to date (1 Jan to 31 July) are $113,885
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Will the Diocese give guidance on our options? - Yes. The Archdeacon, Diocesan Council and General Trust Board would all be involved in any of these decisions and will willingly offer guidance and help.
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The General Trust Board (GTB) is legal owner of the properties, what responsibility do they take for our recent history of repairs and maintenance? The Parish to St Mary by the Sea Torbay are the custodians of the buildings we use. The GTB "hold them in trust for the Parish of Torbay." In return for using these buildings rent/lease free, it is the parishes responsibility to maintain them.
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Do the Diocese would have a caring interest in securing the ongoing welfare of St Mary by the Sea? Yes they do. We have an Archdeacon that provides local guidance and we are under the leadership of Bishop Ross Bay who was with us in worship in July.
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What shape might this take? - this would be negotiated in partnership with an adjoining parish. Two options are common:
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- One Sunday is "priest led", the next it is "lay led"
- Adjoining parishes alternate worship location. Ie one week at St Mary by the Sea, the next at St Somewhere. Or there is an 8am service in one place and a 10am in another.
Has the diocese been invited to give their opinion about sale of these assets? Not at this stage, as the parish has not agreed to explore this. The Diocese has a history of selling of buildings no longer required when a ministry unit asks for this, and provides a good case for it. Those funds then become available for the ministry unit. How those funds are able to be used would need to be negotiated before selling buildings.
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Are any of the sale proceeds available to us to pay our way? Yes. We would need to put the case to Diocesan Council and the General Trust Board for the realisation of assets and the re-use of these funds for the benefit of the Parish of St Mary by the Sea Torbay.
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What happens to funds if we were to close? When a parish closes, for example St Oswalds, they nominated some money to go to the Auckland City Mission, the other assets and funds were distributed to parishes via Diocesan Council. St Mary by the Sea benefited from the St Oswalds and gained a portable sound system.
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If the vicar becomes part time as in Option 2 would we still have to provide a vicarage? Fully time clergy are provided a house. Part time clergy are most often provided a "prorata housing allowance." The exact details depend on the clergy person appointed and the parishes ability to provide suitable housing. Assuming the questions is instead: "Do we need to bear the full costs for housing?" - the answer is generally no. Though Waiheke Island choose to provide a house to their part-time priest in return for a reduced stipend. Assuming it was option 2, and a neighboring parish shared a priest with St Mary, and the priest worked half-time in each ministry unit, then those parishes together would arrange a clergy house, or full housing allowance. So the full answer is it depends.
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Ideas brought forward
- Having a cafe in the hall
- Free up more proceeds from the Community Shop to extend our community profile.
- The church is on a corner site which gets a reasonable amount of traffic. Is there the possibility of selling advertising space e.g. billboards, signs on fence etc? Obviously the advertisers would need to be chosen appropriately. Perhaps we could approach groups like charities, Schools, etc
- Church fair as means of generating income? If this was held on the same day as one of the Torbay Village Markets we could piggyback off the attendance at this. Also if we were to hold it on whichever market day is closest to Christmas we could not only tap into Christmas shopping, but also share the Advent message, have the worship team playing Christmas carols etc.
Finances
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What are our finances? Our latest accounts were presented to the parish at the 24th March SGM. They are below. A specific question was asked about property costs, that figure is above.
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2023 Finances
Revenue
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Donations & Fundraising $83,019
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Rental & Hall Hire $15,394
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Interest & Dividends $8,863
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Expenses
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Stipends & Ministry Costs ($77,882)
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Property Costs ($126,954)
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Operating Costs ($27,176)
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Diocesan Quota & Levies ($7,667)
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Mission & Giving ($9,175)
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Total Expenses ($281,311)
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Deficit before depreciation
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Net Operating (Deficit) for the year ($37,650)
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Deficit after depreciation
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Net (Deficit) for the year (76,556)
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Total Comprehensive (Deficit) for the year (76,556)
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2022 Finances
Revenue
Expenses
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Total Expenses ($214,251)
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Deficit before depreciation
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Net Operating (Deficit) for the year ($2,474)
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Deficit after depreciation
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Net (Deficit) for the year (43,481)
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Total Comprehensive (Deficit) for the year (43,481)
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Archive
Our first email about finding a way forward with finances was sent on the 16th July and is here.
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The invite to meeting two was here.
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